With guidance from producers Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy, En Vogue reinvigorated the girl-group format in the 1990s, taking over the R&B and pop charts with a dynamic merger of vintage soul, new jack swing, and even rock and classical.
Though the term “supergroup” has historically meant a collective of already-established artists, when En Vogue stepped onto the scene in 1990 it was immediately undeniable that they were an act that fit the definition.
The sum of four formidable and dynamic vocal virtuosos, in Cindy Herron, Terry Ellis, Dawn Robinson, and Maxine Jones, En Vogue was the brainchild of Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy, aka Foster & McElroy. A songwriting and production team from Oakland, the duo were, at the time of the group’s formation in 1989, best known for their work with Club Nouveau, Tony! Toni! Toné!, and Timex Social Club.
The vision they had in mind for En Vogue was one that would restore the girl-group format to its harmony-driven roots, while also upending the form by merging purist R&B and soul with the youthful luster of hip-hop, house, and new jack swing. With each member capable of compellingly singing lead, together the ladies materialized as a force that can only be described as lightning in a bottle. They were a unit that epitomized sophistication, elegance, feistiness, and reverence for the craft of singing. “We won the lottery on every level with them,” McElroy says, fondly.
With the release of their debut album, Born To Sing, and its triad of U.S. R&B/Hip-Hop #1 singles in “Hold On,” “Lies,” and “You Don’t Have To Worry,” En Vogue became a phenomenon, setting the wheels in motion for a huge resurgence in group acts, both male and female.
On the heels of their success, airwaves flooded with acts like Boyz II Men, Jodeci, TLC, SWV, Xscape, Jade, Brownstone, and, some years down the line, Destiny’s Child. Even British groups like Eternal and, to a smaller extent, the Spice Girls were clearly modeled on them. “Seeing all the groups who came after us in real time was a trip,” Ellis says.
Nineteen-ninety-two saw the arrival of the group’s career defining sophomore album, Funky Divas. Broader in scope than their debut, the album was home to an impressive run of crossover hits: “Free Your Mind,” “Giving Him Something He Can Feel,” and the eternally effervescent “My Lovin’ (You’re Never Gonna Get It).” Their penchant to strike audio gold was further evidenced when they joined forces with Salt-N-Pepa for the 1993 hip-hop soul smash “Whatta Man,” a top ten pop hit in both the U.S. and U.K.
By the time they unleashed “Don’t Let Go (Love),” which would go on to be the group’s signature song, in 1996, En Vogue was one of R&B’s defining acts. Unfortunately, it would come to mark the end of their imperial phase. Already up against the task of working out how to adapt to Black music’s changing landscape towards the end of the ’90s, En Vogue would weather the loss of Dawn Robinson, whose departure over contract disputes came just two months before the release of 1997’s EV3 album. Maxine Jones would follow suit in 2001, leaving to focus on motherhood.
The following years would be marred with lineup changes and lawsuits, unfairly obscuring the fact that these turbulent years birthed some of their most creatively adventurous work, namely 2000’s classical- and opera-infused Masterpiece Theatre, and 2004’s overlooked Soul Flower, which saw the introduction of new member Rhona Bennett.
Today, En Vogue is a trio consisting of Herron, Ellis, and Bennett. Their distinguished pedigree has allowed them to remain staples on the live circuit across the globe—a testament to their standing in the R&B pantheon. As the recipients of seven MTV Video Music Awards, three Soul Train Music Awards, two American Music Awards, and six Grammy nominations—and with record sales surpassing twenty-five million copies worldwide—En Vogue remains one of the world’s all-time best-selling girl groups.
Wax Poetics caught up with the current lineup while they were in London for this year’s Cross the Tracks Festival (where they stepped in as a last-minute headliner following the cancellation of Erykah Badu) for a conversation reflecting on their storied career. Also joining the discussion were Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy, who granted us a rare interview, offering new perspectives on En Vogue’s origins and legacy.
This year marks thirty-five years since the group formed. What do you remember about the audition?
Cindy Herron: The four of us showed up on the same day to audition, and there was actually a fifth girl there, too. Our producers Denzil Foster and Thomas McElroy had a song prewritten and produced that would be our audition piece. We had to learn that song right on the spot and each girl would go in and sing the lead in her style. After we did that, we laid down all the background vocals, and that was the audition. Initially, they were looking for a three-girl group, but when they heard how well our harmonies worked together, they decided to make it four.
Denzil and Thomas, can you tell us more about the audition song?
Denzil Foster: “Waitin’ On You” was the audition song, which we first put on [the 1989 Foster & McElroy compilation album] FM2 and, later, on their own album [Born To Sing], too. Pretty much what you hear on the record was the audition. I think we might have cleaned up one or two parts but everything else is pretty much one take. That was the pressure we wanted to put them under.
Thomas McElroy: Grover Washington Jr. was featured on that song too, playing soprano saxophone. We went out to Philadelphia to get him on the track, which was an honor.
Tell me about the initial process of gelling together as a unit while recording the debut album, Born To Sing? And what was the creative direction for its sound?
Cindy Herron: Our chemistry, personality-wise, was good right off. Honestly, we were just excited to be there. We got started almost right away. Within a number of weeks, we were in the studio banging out songs.
Thomas McElroy: Denzil always had the concept of having an all-star team women’s group. Having essentially Gladys Knight, Aretha Franklin, Patti LaBelle, and Diana Ross, all in the same group. We wanted something that emphasized vocals and harmonies, where all the girls could sing lead. I remember us talking about the music being minimalistic and not overly produced. Mixing untouchable vocals with hip-hop rhythms. Something most girl groups weren’t doing at that time. We wanted music that referenced what we were listening to: old-school R&B, hip-hop, and a little bit of house music.
Denzil Foster: I think Soul II Soul coming out triggered us into thinking that beautiful singing on very hip-hop tracks could work.
Thomas McElroy: Queen Latifah’s All Hail The Queen album was another one that jogged our heads. She was a rapper but she was doing some singing on there, too.
The group was formed and developed in Oakland, California. Speak about the music scene over there at the time.
Terry Ellis: Oakland was known for its beats. You had acts like Tony! Toni! Toné!, Timex Social Club, Samuelle, Club Nouveau, Ray Parker Jr., Too Short, Sheila E, MC Hammer, and Digital Underground. It was banging around that time, a lot of talent over there.
Denzil Foster: When we put the girls together, we had just come out of Club Nouveau, which kind of gave the Bay Area a little light. The area was kind of dying out a little because a lot of funk bands, and disco-era artists like Con Funk Shun, Sylvester, and the Pointer Sisters, were falling off. The hip-hop scene over there started popping lightly but, to be making a lot of noise out there for the world to see, you had to be shooting rockets. We rallied around our musicians and took pride in it, but nobody else was taking pride in it. In that era of hip-hop and rap, it was either L.A. or New York. Even the South wasn’t popping yet. Overall, I would say the scene in Oakland was dormant. It was really hard to pull some success out of there and maintain it. Even if you had a hit, labels just didn’t support that area as much. The area itself wasn’t necessarily big for African-American music, as we’re all scattered. Unlike the East Coast where you have a whole eastern border of Black folks.
Can you speak to the relative death of girl groups at the time of En Vogue’s arrival, and why that might have been? Of course, Mary Jane Girls, the Jones Girls, Vanity 6, Sister Sledge, and the Pointer Sisters were around but they had all peaked by the mid-’80s. And there were freestyle groups like Expose and Sweet Sensation, but neither of them had the same degree of sustained success that you guys did.
Cindy Herron: I personally think that music goes through cycles and evolutions. For instance, in the ’50s and ’60s, there were tons of girl groups. That was just very in style at the time, and that was what people wanted. There were a lot of male groups too, for that matter. It was just the group era. After them, there were groups like LaBelle, the Emotions, Mary Jane Girls, and Honey Cone but I think that sound sort of evolved out and ran its course.
Terry Ellis: Then other groups—like Earth, Wind & Fire, the Commodores, and Cameo, who were actual bands—came on the scene and changed the landscape.
Denzil Foster: Even on the guy side—other than New Edition, Guy, and New Kids on the Block—there wasn’t many groups at the time. The labels had shifted to solo acts. They didn’t want to support a lot of groups or bands because it was too expensive. We had to do some convincing to our label [Atlantic Records] that signing En Vogue would be a good idea.
In the decades since the release of “Free Your Mind,” it isn’t discussed enough how, in 1992, it was an anomaly—and in some ways still is—to see Black women in mainstream music singing a rock song. Are you able to recognise how ahead of the curve it was? Especially as a group that, up until then, was literally living at the top of the R&B charts.
Cindy Herron: Our producers really had to fight to get that to be released as a single. The record company wanted us to stay in our lane. They didn’t think radio was going to accept a rock record from us, because Black girls were, and still are, being compartmentalized. Is it okay to say we helped break a glass ceiling for Black women? Before that, the only other reference around that time would’ve been when Janet [Jackson] did “Black Cat.” We had to fight to get it played on the radio, but I’m glad we did. I think the video helped greatly, too. A good visual with a good song can do so much. The crowd in the video was very diverse, as was the band, so it helped open doors for us, too, and the song eventually crossed over.
Denzil Foster: The label already had issues with the Funky Divas album as we were making it, so adding a rock song was just the icing on the cake. They wanted us to fall back and follow the trend we created with the first album. We were trying to get away from that and create a bigger trend. We saw them as a global act, not just an R&B act. A group capable of singing anything at any time, and so we felt [we needed] to make that move while we had all ears on us. That concept doesn’t work with labels because they fear you’re going to alienate the people who loved you at first. I remember MTV playing the video at first, and then suddenly taking it off air after two weeks. But then they got an overwhelming amount of people asking where it was. Once the demand went up, they put it back on and it was forever in their video rotation. Ultimately the record went top ten but it was struggling for a while because the label waited so long to react. Everything that happened was after the fact.
I want to ask about a particular line in the song. In a post-Black Lives Matter world, do you think the “Be colorblind, don’t be so shallow” line may not have aged well?
Denzil Foster: Well, it’s all about context. If we’re just thinking of an overall idea of how we should see people, we shouldn’t be seeing them as colored, white, or whatever. We should see them as people and their deeds. But, yes, if I was writing the song today, I might not have put the line in because of the climate we’re currently in.
En Vogue is known just as much for fashion as for music. How does it feel having the iconic red dresses from “Giving Him Something He Can Feel” on display at the Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture? That’s a pretty significant marker of your cultural influence.
Cindy Herron: It feels very surreal. I never would have guessed in a thousand years that our dresses would have made so much of an impact that they would be put on display in such a historic museum. It’s an honor to be part of all the fabulous artifacts there.
Staying on the topic of fashion, I wanted to speak about the video for “Whatever,” which I feel is your best work visually and most underrated as far as concept, styling, and direction. Tell me about working on that video.
Terry Ellis: That video was under the direction of Matthew Ralston, who also did “My Lovin’ (Never Gonna Get It).” He had a background in fashion photography so he always had that eye. I think that video was very fashion forward and ahead of its time, especially with the horror elements and its commentary on plastic surgery.
Across the years, who are your favorite designers that you’ve worked with?
Terry Ellis: Azzedine Alaïa and Todd Oldham, for sure. Also Richard Tyler, who designed the outfits we wore in the “Don’t Let Go (Love)” video. We also had an incredible, one-of-a-kind stylist by the name of Danny Flynn, and we haven’t had anybody like him since. His eye was incredible, and he knew us so well. He knew what looked good on our bodies. He was always up on the latest.
Rhona Bennett: Fast forwarding to the recent past, Michael Mann, who styled us for the “Rocket” video, is another one. May he rest in peace.
This year marked the twentieth anniversary of the Soul Flower album. Taking artistic cues from the neo-soul movement of the time, it’s become somewhat of a cult classic within En Vogue fandom. What do you remember about that era?
Denzil Foster: I would say we just touched on the neo-soul scene. We didn’t go all the way there but, whereas the other albums had a little bit of this and a little bit of that, that album stayed pretty consistent and cohesive in terms of sound. We also had a new component, which was Rhona, who had a naturally very soulful voice. We knew it would be hard to move her into something that the girls would’ve been doing when they were a foursome. We said, “Hey, it’s a new type of group now, a new venture and a different time.”
Rhona, as your first album with the group—how was it coming into an established group and trying to find your identity?
Rhona Bennett: Social media wasn’t popping the way it is now. So, I had an opportunity to find myself in the group without too much criticism. Or at least that I was aware of. [laughs] I’d already been working in the business for quite some time and, because of that foundation, I think it made it a bit easier to transition into the space. I was then able to be more focused on upholding the integrity of En Vogue’s brand and, of course, bringing my own uniqueness to it.
It was also the group’s first album as an independent act. What challenges did it bring as far as promotion? Why were no videos commissioned for its two singles “Losin’ My Mind” and “Ooh Boy”?
Rhona Bennett: It was the group’s first attempt at pushing an album independently without a major machine. At that time, especially in 2004, we didn’t have the conveniences that we have now with social media and how that can be integrated into a marketing campaign. All of that stuff was still being discovered. It was so new and fresh. I think we were finding our way at the time without the machine behind us. So, maybe some boxes didn’t get ticked as far as marketing or promotion. Now I’m learning that, if you live long enough, things are cyclical, so it may pick up steam on TikTok or something one day.
Will the album eventually ever come to streaming services and vinyl? And what are some tracks on the album that you feel deserved more acknowledgement?
Cindy Herron: We’re in the process of making that happen. My favorite song was “Ooh La La.”
Terry Ellis: I really loved “Dissed Him.” That was a solid R&B record.
Rhona Bennett: I’d say “Heaven.” With a little zhuzh, I even think we could do a dope updated version for 2024. It has a grown-and-sexy vibe for the steppers. With the right push, I think a lot of people would jump on it today
As you’ve remained independent since then, most recently with 2018’s Electric Café, would you ever consider going back to a major label?
Terry Ellis: Only if they consider going back to the old-school contracts.
Cindy Herron: And if they don’t want us to try and do a 360 deal.
Rhona Bennett: It would depend on how it’s set up.
I want to speak about your respective solo endeavors over the years. Terry, you released one solo album, Southern Gal, in 1995. How come you didn’t do any more, and would you consider another one now?
Terry Ellis: When I did Southern Gal, I had never had a desire to be a solo artist. Ever. So, when I did that one, my heart wasn’t in it. I was still trying to get my bearings, my footing, and trying to figure it out. But now that I’ve realized I can do it, I would consider doing another one.
Rhona, you were signed to Rodney Jerkins’ Darkchild Records and were known as the “First Lady of Darkchild.” Tell me about that experience working with him?
Rhona Bennett: Well, of course, Rodney was stupid talented, and he was working with everybody at that time. He was at his pinnacle, as it seemed, so it was special to be around the energy of that time. He also had a dope songwriter and vocal arranger in his team by the name of LaShawn Daniels. I learned so much from working with LaShawn, may he rest in peace. He fine-tuned my ear in ways that I didn’t anticipate. Overall, it was just a powerful time working with them. Very foundational for my growth as a singer.
Cindy, you went more in the acting direction, most notably starring in Juice alongside Tupac Shakur and Omar Epps. Did you ever desire to do a solo album?
Cindy Herron: At the time, I was raising four kids and, honestly, I just didn’t have time for much else. It was a very delicate balance for me, that was my priority, so I just never did [an album]. And now, at my age, I can’t imagine what kind of album I would do other than old jazz and big-band standards. Maybe along the lines of Nancy Wilson. If I was going to do anything, it would be something like that.
Denzil and Thomas, En Vogue was your brainchild and, essentially, your baby.How do you feel about the En Vogue brand thirty-five years on?
Denzil Foster: There are some days I feel they got everything due to them, but then I’m like, why aren’t they in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Or why don’t they have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and other things that classic acts eventually start to get? As the years have gone by, I feel like they don’t get as many flowers as I think they should. At least publicly, and [from] the industry.
Thomas McElroy: There’s also the component that is always the elephant in the room. The legacy is a great legacy. It is what it is. We accomplished what we accomplished. The girls pulled it off, all the success was there, and they do get recognized, to a degree. But when Dawn left the group, it derailed their momentum. It changed the dynamic of the group. It affected their relationship with the record company, and how much confidence they had in the group. And I said it often: they are En Vogue. Yes, we built and we conceptualized it, but they are their own brand now. The legacy is in place, but there was so much that was unfulfilled that I felt could have happened. Even to this day, I feel bad that all the girls aren’t together, reaping the benefits of their legacy.
Other girl groups from your generation have all broken up at some point, or had long periods of inactivity. Yet that’s never been the case with En Vogue. Why is that?
Terry Ellis: We’ve simply never stopped working. It’s a blessing that our fans have been very accepting of whatever version of En Vogue they were getting, and that they have allowed us to continue working. So thank you, Jesus, and thank you to our fans.
In 2019, we saw you reunite with original members Dawn Robinson and Maxine Jones, performing as a five-piece for the first time. Do you think that’s something we could see again in future? And where do you stand with Dawn and Maxine today?
Cindy Herron: It’s not a plan right now. We’re cool with Maxine. We were all cool when everybody came together in 2019. It was a great reunion, but Dawn has just decided she doesn’t want to work with us again. Maxine’s open, though.I don’t know if you’ll ever see the five of us again but never say never.
